Apps are proliferating and they are everywhere. Admins are tasked with packaging, delivering, managing, and securing those apps, whether they’re locally installed on laptops or mobile devices, delivered through the web or SaaS, or accessed through VDI, DaaS, or published apps environments. Multiple versions of enterprise apps may be deployed in the data center, while more modern apps may be delivered across multiple clouds.
Many organizations utilize VDI, DaaS, and published app environments to securely host and deliver virtual apps, including legacy apps tied to the data center. While VDI, DaaS, and published app deployments have aided the way IT admins can securely deliver apps to end users at scale, there are common challenges in published app environments like Citrix Virtual Apps (formerly XenApp). For example, IT typically deploys groups of servers into farms, silos, or delivery groups to host their published apps for users. These servers are architected to scale to the peak usage of the apps being hosted. And when users don’t use apps, these server resources sit idle and are wasted. Server optimization is the whole point of virtualization. These farms are expensive and require IT time to be managed.
Also, IT admins must manage the copies of apps on each farm and independently manage OS updates on each host, leading to inefficiencies as app and server counts increase. Running antiquated and inefficient app environments can lead to inflated costs, app-lifecycle management challenges, and incompatibility of apps.
Host: Andy Whiteside
Co-host: Philip Sellers
Apps are proliferating and they are everywhere. Admins are tasked with packaging, delivering, managing, and securing those apps, whether they’re locally installed on laptops or mobile devices, delivered through the web or SaaS, or accessed through VDI, DaaS, or published apps environments. Multiple versions of enterprise apps may be deployed in the data center, while more modern apps may be delivered across multiple clouds.
Many organizations utilize VDI, DaaS, and published app environments to securely host and deliver virtual apps, including legacy apps tied to the data center. While VDI, DaaS, and published app deployments have aided the way IT admins can securely deliver apps to end users at scale, there are common challenges in published app environments like Citrix Virtual Apps (formerly XenApp). For example, IT typically deploys groups of servers into farms, silos, or delivery groups to host their published apps for users. These servers are architected to scale to the peak usage of the apps being hosted. And when users don’t use apps, these server resources sit idle and are wasted. Server optimization is the whole point of virtualization. These farms are expensive and require IT time to be managed.
Also, IT admins must manage the copies of apps on each farm and independently manage OS updates on each host, leading to inefficiencies as app and server counts increase. Running antiquated and inefficient app environments can lead to inflated costs, app-lifecycle management challenges, and incompatibility of apps.
Host: Andy Whiteside
Co-host: Philip Sellers
WEBVTT
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Andy Whiteside: Hello, everyone! Welcome to episode 33 of on the horizon. I'm your host, Andy White side today. Is a April seventeenth.
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Andy Whiteside: 23. Okay, it's going to be due.
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Andy Whiteside: Zoom. That's crazy.
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Andy Whiteside: Let's don't this don't dwell on how fast our life is going by, Philip, it doesn't do any good.
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Andy Whiteside: Philip Sellers with me. Philip is a subject matter. Expert solutions, architect covering all things, Vmware and others as in Tiger. Philip, how's it going?
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Philip Sellers: It's going Great Andy yeah. Little alarmed that we're at the middle towards the end of April already like that's scary
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Andy Whiteside: so i'm getting full of a hard time real quick. I got on. He wasn't on the camera. I was like Phillip. Where are you?
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Andy Whiteside: So? That's sort of calling him and he popped back on it's like oh, good! You're here, he said. Yeah, I knew we were going to have a camera, and I had to put some gel on my hair, and I was like, oh, we're pre Madonna. Yeah, I I had to go fix my my head before we we hopped on. So how did you get camera ready, Andy? Camera ready at all times. I was coming back from vacation last week in Phoenix, Arizona and the Tsa agent grab my license, and I had 2 kids with me under age, Miners
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Andy Whiteside: and they were. They went through, and they said, Sir, I need to talk to you. I was like, oh, God! What is this? And he pulls me over, and he shows my driver's id, and it's from literally. 5 years ago. He's like this: Looks nothing like you. I'm like
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Philip Sellers: you're right. It doesn't look a lot like me.
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Philip Sellers: Yeah, you know. I mean it's it. It catches up with us, and it's unfortunate. But yeah, I mean, 10 years is a long time in between renewing licenses. I mean, you know it's what do they expect? There's a lot of life happening.
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Andy Whiteside: Yeah, there certainly is a lot of lot of stuff going on, all right. So
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Andy Whiteside: you and I have been at several conferences in the past 6 months.
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Andy Whiteside: We just got back from the Igl disrupt conference, which was a lot of fun, and it was actually great to see Vmware being there, and have so many people there really good for us to interact, and one of the
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Andy Whiteside: one of the things that happened was V, and we had a chance to present to the entire crowd during some of the keynotes. And yet again, what they focused on which I think is interesting for being, Where
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Andy Whiteside: is They're really focusing on this apps on demand piece of the story their story. So the day's blog we're covering from January, thirteenth 2,023 from the lease deal that I can tell you pronounce it. The name of the blog is apps on demand. The published Apps Game Changer is finally here
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Andy Whiteside: curious Curious to learn more about that for you, Philip. Why did you think it was important that we cover this topic?
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Philip Sellers: Well, you know we we talked about at volumes, I think, in the last podcast. And you know this is an extension of that technology. So while it's nothing new, it is really revolutionary, and it's really a great step forward for us in terms of delivering apps, decoupled and packaged
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Philip Sellers: in a way that also doesn't slow down the user experience. And so that's really the revolution behind apps on demand. It's that you only load these just in time. So you have all of that packaged app goodness delivered, and stream to you when you you need it and the demos and things that you can find online.
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Philip Sellers: Yeah, they illustrate that. You click the icon. It comes in and boom. There's the app. It loads relatively quickly, but it helps us deliver that fast seamless access that our users are really seeking out.
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Andy Whiteside: So does this mean that? V. And we's getting out of the desktop game, or what are they doing?
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Philip Sellers: No, not at all. So you know a little bit of funniness in the naming the way that you consume it the way you license. It is a a product that Vmware calls Vmware horizon apps.
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Philip Sellers: but it is the app volumes, technology. And so they have a horizon apps universal subscription. That's the easiest way to subscribe to it now and V, and we're still committed from the horizon. You know the the view product, which is more akin to the Citrix delivery methods. And so they also have the Vmware horizon, universal subscription. So everybody's going universal. Last year was the
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Andy Whiteside: of everybody going plus this year's the year of everybody going universal, right? So i'm going to ask a question now, and and feel free to kind of delay? The answer, because I think it's going to come up as we go through the blog. But
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Andy Whiteside: how much of this is tied into the fact that Vmware
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Andy Whiteside: has not only the workspace, one horizon piece, but they also have the underpinning hypervisor technology for a lot of lot of these environments is that
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Andy Whiteside: is that coming to play here?
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Philip Sellers: I I don't know in this particular story. If it does, I mean certainly in their whole story around app delivery. It definitely does, because they've got a, you know, arguably one of the strongest players
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Philip Sellers: in the Mdm. And modern management space with workspace one, you know. They've taken parts of that, and and married it to the horizon suite for delivery and and the horizon suite has come a long way, you know, giving users choice between.
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you know, a native client, delivery or HTML 5 running everything that you need in the browser, and great integration, with all of your Ssos identity and Sas application. So it's really a strong story about giving your users a one. Stop place that they can go and consume all of the applications for your organization.
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Andy Whiteside: Yeah, I'm: I'm: looking at the video. I'm gonna take a chance here and play the video. Maybe i'll definitely played it faster than normal speed. But you know, as you look at the the Graphic for the video, it it calls out that these are Vmdks, which
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Andy Whiteside: really to me
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Andy Whiteside: means no, it's not necessarily hypervisor specific, especially with the Bmdks, but it does tie back into the fact that you know this is where V and where it comes from.
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Andy Whiteside: and that if they don't know how to optimize it, then nobody does.
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Philip Sellers: Yeah, you know it's. It is still based on their formats. It it's it's really
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Philip Sellers: about packaging. So you know, when they started the the Vm. On the Virtual Machine revolution, the Mdk became the gold standard that everybody else kind of works from, and
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Philip Sellers: these after packages are the same thing just happen to be broken up with just in time. What you need.
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Andy Whiteside: Yeah.
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Andy Whiteside: So i'm looking at the video. Now, I guess we'll just reference it. And does the video do a good job of explaining in layman's terms how this works and demonstrates it at the same time.
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Philip Sellers: Yeah, it does. I I would definitely recommend watching this, you know, at the end of the day it's agent based right? So you load in an agent here, and that's what's talking to these app Vmd. Case.
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and it goes ahead. It looks at your identity, knows what you're entitled to, and places that onto the machine
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Philip Sellers: as you log in. But there's no extra login time because it's not doing activities like merging disks together and building your your image. It's just going out and saying you're entitled to these things. So i'm gonna give you the shortcut to them.
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Andy Whiteside: Well, and you talk about merging and stacking images that that's what a lot of people have bad taste in their mouth, because that's what generation one and 2 was like actually shuffling stuff over and getting it mounted. In this case we're just mountain that across the on super fast networks that exist today.
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Philip Sellers: and it's it's really great, because it's not just you know at the time that you're You're building your profile and and logging in right
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Philip Sellers: you know it's not a machine-wide setting. So when you talk about applying this to your remote desktop, forms your app delivery like zoom, app, and and keep in mind. This is Cross platform. It's not horizon specific works in AV Works and Citrix.
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Philip Sellers: So when you're talking about your citrix remote desktop host forms your server based forms. It's not going to load all of these applications in, and if you've been titled 100 applications, you don't have that delay of of putting things together. It's just going to give you the icons on a per user basis.
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Philip Sellers: and when that user requested it loads into their session. So it's not system wide and and that also helps from a density perspective, because you're able to pull everything into a a simpler set of base images
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Philip Sellers: and then put more applications on it. So our user density should increase, using this technology. So
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Philip Sellers: yeah, that that's one of the the the benefits that we also see using this is is increased density.
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Andy Whiteside: And just so we're clear for those listening. This isn't just for V. And I know you said this. But if i'm using vmware if i'm using native Microsoft on parameter in the cloud. If i'm using Citrix on parameter in the cloud, if i'm using work spot, if i'm using Toomeo, if i'm using avd plus Nerdio, I mean this
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this is only this is for environments that have applications which is therefore
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Andy Whiteside: everywhere right
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Philip Sellers: it is. It really applies across all of the the Vbs sort of used cases both, you know. Desktop, OS server OS
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it, and it helps us again, you know. I mean the the first point that they make here is around the roi, and so that density cup play helps us, you know, drive the Roi
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Philip Sellers: because you need less resources. You, you don't have as many farms you don't have as many servers set up to to be able to accommodate your users. You're able to just. Do
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Philip Sellers: you know enough to handle your core? Use case, and then, whatever application the user needs, it's able to be delivered.
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Philip Sellers: You know it it.
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Philip Sellers: I'm rambling a little bit, so i'm gonna let you ask your question again.
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Philip Sellers: just validating that this is not just for V. And we shops. This is for
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Andy Whiteside: application. it this is for environments, whether it's a locally running PC. Running windows. Whether it's a virtual desktop, whether it's a a, an environment running X, 86 windows, architecture that presents just the application.
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Andy Whiteside: This is kind of that Nirvana that we wanted. I've wanted since, I guess.
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Andy Whiteside: what 2,007 timeframe when I first touched, you know, at the and citric streaming apps
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Andy Whiteside: it just it was too clunky and too slow.
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Andy Whiteside: Now I've got the opportunity to bring it real time into my at publishing environment or to my desktop environment. Neither server based or Vdi based it doesn't matter. This goes across the spectrum of those
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Philip Sellers: It was clunky, and
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Philip Sellers: this is the exact opposite of that. It's very well workflowed. It has the thought process of how you update and maintain and roll forward and roll back on versions and updates. You know we we've never had a application patch. Break something halfway, Andy.
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Philip Sellers: That's a feature right, you know. Broken a patch is a feature. So being able to roll back instantly or quickly is is thought out in this process. And so those workflows really exist, and that's that's something that that helps us
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Philip Sellers: from an administration and a operational standpoint make huge time gains when we're trying to manage a a farm at scale.
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Philip Sellers: You know we we're used to having to test all of these applications and how they interact with one another. Those issues kind of go away with a technology like this because
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Philip Sellers: you've got a pristine image with very few things truly installed. And then you're delivering your applications on demand as things to request them. So you're testing. Rubric is also a lot easier.
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Andy Whiteside: Well, let's walk through the block here and talk about the reasons. First one which you were alluding to a minute ago, which is making it more cost effective to run the environment. Number one is reduce Vdi infrastructure cost. What are they doing here?
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Philip Sellers: Yeah, it's really around the optimization. So just like Vmware is known for doing in the Vm. Hosting space. You know they're taking resources and using it more optimally, you know, by forcing more density into your infrastructure.
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Philip Sellers: you know you have a base image. You may have windows and perhaps office loaded for every user and then everything else that is special that may only be used 5 times a year is delivered as an app on demand. So the 5 times that the user needs it. They click it.
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Philip Sellers: it gets loaded into their session, and they run, and then, as soon as they log off, it cleans up after itself, no longer present, no longer installed.
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Philip Sellers: That means that we can stack instead of 10 users. We can stack 25 or 30 or 40 users into shared multi-session type environments. That's where you're gonna be able to realize some of your return on investment when it comes to infrastructure.
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Andy Whiteside: Yeah.
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Andy Whiteside: Okay. So the next one is make app and image management more efficient. Okay. That first one was kind of a dream all these years
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Andy Whiteside: didn't necessarily need it. We had image management, the second one, though where we reduced the number of images. Yet again. is one of the biggest wins and big win for the admins for sure. How does this apply?
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Philip Sellers: Well, so image management is where you spend most of your time. And and so this is the exponential reduction method. Right here. If you can move from 10 images
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Philip Sellers: for 10 different user profiles like. You know you have
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Philip Sellers: a remote contractor profile. You have a office worker, profile, a finance profile, a sales profile, and and you can move all of those to a single image. The engineering hours needed to maintain that one image is exponentially. It's 4 times less than the time of managing all of those other images.
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Philip Sellers: That's the the place that the an admins really want to be, because no Admin. Wants to install the same patch on 10 different images, and then test it 10 different times. That's a huge
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Philip Sellers: burden. But we've had to do that because certain applications Don't play well together. Certain applications can't coexist.
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Philip Sellers: and this helps us drive efficiency by helping those environments. Those applications run side by side.
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Philip Sellers: And you know there's also the thing of entitlements, right? We've had issues getting the right apps to the right users. And there are a lot of times that we deliver a
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Philip Sellers: a desktop to a user and they're gonna have applications they don't actually need. So that's may drive extra licensing cost that may drive, you know. Just confusion of choice. And so now you're able to target and say, these are only the apps that the user needs to get.
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Philip Sellers: You can count on those being delivered
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Philip Sellers: every time the same way. And the user is gonna have that very consistent, repeatable user experience, and it's gonna be fast.
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Andy Whiteside: Okay. So that's the promise for the Admin. That's Number 2. Number 3 is
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Andy Whiteside: transformed modern apps across clouds and deliver a better in user experience. This is where I've always been hung up.
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Andy Whiteside: You get better for the admins. but not better for the end. User? Why does number 3 here apply this time?
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Philip Sellers: Yeah, because it drives that repeatability. So you don't log in and have any variability between your sessions. Your users come in. They're used to
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Philip Sellers: one way of working. It's very straightforward. You have the applications both on the start menu and on your desktop, and they click into those, and then the client goes out, talks to the app volume server, and pulls everything it needs in to run, and it's a very quick process, You know.
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Philip Sellers: I know that it says that it's a better end user experience. But this part of the blog also talks about all the different formats and things that that are capable. And and really, what Vmware has told us is that
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Philip Sellers: they're able to bundle and create at volumes for 99% of apps, so that's a huge compatibility when.
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Philip Sellers: as we saw in earlier iterations of technology like at the it worked for Msi package things. But it may not have worked as well for an exe installer or a jar installer. You know these modern cloud
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Philip Sellers: first cloud thought out application, formats, or application. Packages are are much
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Philip Sellers: more conducive to that repeatable user experience, and that means the user is happy. They know how to use it. It's a very low learning curve. There's nothing to learn. It just works for them.
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Andy Whiteside: No, Phil, does that mean that in some cases it's a combination of. And
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Andy Whiteside: so you have volumes getting over to an app presentation. And between the 2 things, then you're solving, or is it just the app
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Andy Whiteside: at the mounting of the applications? Or it just depends.
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Philip Sellers: It depends. You know, what's great about this is it is compatible in both modes, so it's compatible in a full desktop. Delivery, or in an app delivery model. So you know, at the end of the day it is really easy to get value in both of those scenarios, and and
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Philip Sellers: you know all of that is the streaming in of the application just in time. You know. It's
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Philip Sellers: because of the the way that Vmware approached this, and it's packaged up into their vmdk format it. It's really horrible, you know. We we've got examples where it works across both desktop and server operating systems from the same image.
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Philip Sellers: So there's there's a lot of goodness, but because it's looking at all the changes in a windows environment as it does the packaging, it's super compatible, and that's actually the the next thing that
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they're calling out in the blog post.
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Andy Whiteside: So
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Andy Whiteside: we've touched on this fellow. But I just want to make sure that our audience knows this. This Isn't just for virtual environments. This is for physical environments to
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Philip Sellers: I don't think we're there quite yet. But if If you look at the technology, there's really nothing stopping it from happening in a a physical environment. I don't know that we've heard that officially from Vmware yet, but it is something that I I do.
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Philip Sellers: I think I can see the writing on the wall, and I expect in the future this technology will work on bare metal as well.
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Andy Whiteside: Okay.
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Andy Whiteside: I guess the question maybe is how it licenses licenses in different. We'll find out.
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Philip Sellers: Yeah. And and today it's licensed on the user so pretty simple model, just user account and
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Philip Sellers: roll on. I think it's user or concurrent. User
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Andy Whiteside: So the next topic section here says: access apps everywhere, deliver faster apps.
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Philip Sellers: Yeah, you know it's you. You with the web client and things like that. You can get to these applications through horizon, using the HTML 5 client.
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Philip Sellers: but you know it. It's super compatible. You you get all of the same sort of things that that you expect, and including really strong backwards Compatibility.
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Philip Sellers: you know it. It's use.
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Philip Sellers: It can be used with active X controls and some of the other older technologies. So it really helps you to deliver those securely on. You know modern platforms as well, but you know it's
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Philip Sellers: It's funny in this section of it. It talks about. You know some of those compatibility issues. But you know, at the end of the day the the headlines, as you you deliver the apps faster, and really that is the case I mean it's
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Philip Sellers: It's reduction in time around testing and and other things that just packages it up in a very compatible way, so you can get it out to your users faster.
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Andy Whiteside: Okay, Number 5. Allow it. Teams to work collaboratively, get independently. Equal manage apps environments more efficiently. Is this bringing the
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Andy Whiteside: the systems team and the app team together, but not actually having to have them live within the image together.
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Philip Sellers: It is so a lot of times, you know. You see the the systems team responsible for base server OS patching, and and they have maybe some of those security responsibilities around
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Philip Sellers: the base image. But they really don't want to get into the application layer. They they want to stay in the world where they're comfortable, and that's that's enabled. With this they put the agent on to that base image.
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Philip Sellers: They get to life cycle and manage it, and the Apps folks get to abstract their world away into a separate management console which oh, by the way, vmware is including cloud management as an option, or on prem your choice
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Philip Sellers: Same cost with this subscription. So you're able to manage it completely separately, and have full control over what versions delivered to what groups and users
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Philip Sellers: independent of that image management. So in siloed organizations which we run into a lot with our larger customers. This is a huge win because it keeps the the lines of war
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Philip Sellers: separated a little bit.
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Andy Whiteside: Yeah.
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Andy Whiteside: And we need those lines, and this is
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Andy Whiteside: a promise that we've been waiting for for a long time to allow us to. You know segment from what the systems guys are putting together what the application guys are trying to manage. And at the other day the end user just gets a happy good experience that allows them to access the stuff from anywhere.
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Philip Sellers: Yeah, and you know it's one of those things where it it. It doesn't point it out in the blog post, but I i'm gonna go on a soliloquy from it. It's actually simple. And so I, If I were writing this blog post, that's one of the things I would have called out here. It's really simple. It's simple to stand up. It's simple to orchestrate, but it's very user. Friendly to the it teams and to the user
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Philip Sellers: And so that's what I like about it. I mean it it. Some of the best solutions are the ones that are, you know. It may be very complex under the covers, but it's very simple to understand and operate, and I think that's the thing that you
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that I would definitely call out if anybody struggling with that management, if you have a large portfolio that you're trying to deliver.
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Philip Sellers: and that happens a lot with organizations as they acquire other firms, and you know time grows on.
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Andy Whiteside: Yeah.
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Andy Whiteside: Well, that's the thing, too. It all starts with understanding your use cases, but really starts with understanding your app portfolio, and hopefully, a lot of this can help you kind of mitigate some of that portfolio and get the maybe even shrink it down a little bit.
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Andy Whiteside: and that's where you know, using partners like remote 3, we can help try to analyze. Yeah portfolio. Because, you know, this really starts in my our world starts with a couple of things, one understanding the true cost of desktop, ownership and management. And then, aside from that, or in addition to that understanding that the your application portfolio, and you know I
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Andy Whiteside: for you and I this doesn't come as a shock for most of our listeners. It probably won't come as a shock if you truly challenge yourself. But most companies don't know their total cost of desktop and application ownership, and a lot of them, most of them Don't, understand their application portfolio.
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Andy Whiteside: and then you go to do a project, and that's when you start to find out how much they really don't know about their applications.
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Philip Sellers: and those are drivers that those are big drivers to cost when it comes to upgrading and managing your end. User compute environment. Whether that's on a desktop in a Vdi hosted in the cloud.
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Philip Sellers: I all of that X cost because there's bloat. There's time from engineering. There's time for testing all of those activities equal money. And
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Philip Sellers: that's the the huge benefit that you should be able to realize is, you know, just increase efficiency around your resources. Yeah, I I've sat in rooms with with business folks.
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Philip Sellers: and all too often. You hear the turn that, or you hear them say, oh, no, that application is no longer use. It can't be. We have a we we haven't used that in 5 years, only to find out there are still pockets in the company that rely on it on a daily basis, or refer back to it, you know occasionally for historical reference; but
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Philip Sellers: having those metrics being able to measure how often things are being utilized. I'll go towards managing your app portfolio, and and really knowing what that, what's gonna cost you to to maintain it over time.
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Andy Whiteside: Well, I think about the security ramifications that oh, great! It's been working for 5 years. Nobody complained. Oh, that's great. Guess what that also means. You didn't patch it or check on it in 5 years.
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Philip Sellers: Yeah, there's a good chance, you know, If if it's still working and and stuff, then Microsoft Hasn't done their job and put their patches on. I know you know a lot of the security holes and things. You know. It relies on
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Philip Sellers: legacy Ssl: ciphers and things like that. And so, as you patch and fix those vulnerabilities, it does tend to break some of your legacy applications. So
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Philip Sellers: yeah, there's a good chance that hadn't been touched, and that may not be a good thing at the end of the day.
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Andy Whiteside: Yeah.
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Andy Whiteside: all right. So, Philip, the last section talks about learning more. One of it was the the demo. The other is maybe some
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Andy Whiteside: opportunities to read more. What is in tech or doing to help customers take a look at this
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Andy Whiteside: option, and potentially do a pilot or some type of other engagement.
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Philip Sellers: So we we've got some great stuff going on here, so we've been working closely with our partner over at Vmware, and we've got a great program that we just announced last week at Agile Disrupt. It's a program called apps on demand. Just start
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Philip Sellers: and just start is really there to help you as a customer. Get your hands on apps on demand. The short version is, will help you package 10 apps and 20 days or less.
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Philip Sellers: and get you up and running and help you realize this modern way to manage your applications and your application portfolio.
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Just start is a a free to customer. There are some base requirements and things that we can help you qualify for, but it is a free to you offering to help you get
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Philip Sellers: started with apps on demand. So and also Andy mentioned this not just apps on demand, but we also work very closely with remote 3.
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Philip Sellers: So for customers who have been managing their application portfolio using system, center config manager, or what they call Microsoft endpoint manager today.
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Philip Sellers: We also partner with remote 3 who can help you import all of that work, all of that staging that you've done in Sccm.
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Philip Sellers: Package at nap volumes as well. So we've got 2 great things going on here with the apps on demand. Just start program.
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Philip Sellers: You know. You can get more information@thisintegralwebsiteyougotozintagra.com slash. Just start. and if you're interested you can reach out and get in touch with us, and there's some some base information out here as well about the program.
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Andy Whiteside: Yeah.
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Andy Whiteside: that's awesome. Hopefully, people take advantage of them. I'm sure if we get that message out 100%. It's doesn't cost them anything to kick the tires. And
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Andy Whiteside: if you've been in this space like I have, like Philip, has for a decade or more.
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Andy Whiteside: This is way overdue. and certainly worth investing some time into.
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Philip Sellers: Yeah, it's got the promise of saving you lots of money and lots of time. Both resources, I know, are
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Philip Sellers: scarce, and so many organizations with cut backs and downsizing and and just the state of things. So we'd love to help you get some of those things back.
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Andy Whiteside: Well, awesome, Philip, thanks for taking the time to cover that with us, and i'm sure we'll do more on the apps on demand. It is relevant in every customer we touch for sure.
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Andy Whiteside: Thank you, Andy, appreciate it.