On the Horizon: Eliminate your legacy app publishing complexity with App Volumes and new “Apps on Demand”

VMware is attempting to disrupt the app publishing market with the introduction of its new "Apps On Demand" technology in App Volumes.  Apps On Demand enables just in time delivery of applications to users without the typical delays during login and with ease of administration.  With many choices for packing, App Volumes enables Apps On Demand to leverage your existing application packages and deliver them seamlessly to your users.  Boasting 99% success rate in packaging, VMware's App Volumes is succeeding where other solutions struggle.   

Host: Philip Sellers
Co-host: Rizwan Shaikh

Transcript

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Philip Sellers: Hello, and welcome. This is Phil Sellers. Thank you for joining Episode Number 31 Vmware on the horizon, podcast from Zendegra.

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Philip Sellers: We are happy to have you join us today. Can't believe that we're already in month number 3 of the year, 2,023 it's incredible how time is just flying by.

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Philip Sellers: I i'm joined today with Rizzwan Sheikh, one of our solutions Architect I'm. Also a solutions architect here at Integra. And

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Philip Sellers: Yeah, this is the podcast where we get to talk about all the fun things that are happening inside of the Vmware world and in user compute. So this one how you doing today?

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Rizwan Shaikh: I'm: absolutely fine. Well, how about you doing Well, can you believe we're already in March? I mean, it just seems like this year's flying by. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah, we

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Rizwan Shaikh: we've just crossed to February, and it's all yeah, we've been looking at some more, Some more technologies coming in, and we have March here, actually, and they're still learning a lot of new things coming up. The

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Philip Sellers: yeah. Indeed, You know, our technology partners are not resting. They are certainly keeping things interesting and pushing forward.

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Philip Sellers: There's a lot of change going on for sure, but they, you know, I I think we've got a really good topic. One of the great changes that we've seen from Vmware is, you know, around a technology called add volumes, and they've released a new service offering and called apps on demand

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Philip Sellers: as part of that at volumes. And so i'm excited to to get to dig into this today with you.

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Philip Sellers: Talk about it because it's not just something that's being more specific. It's it's something that can help any of our Euc customers whether they're running horizon or citrix. It it's not limited, and so you know this: this is an area, though, that

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Philip Sellers: we've we've spent a lot of time as an industry for the last. I don't know 20 years trying to solve the app problem, particularly when we come to

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Rizwan Shaikh: yeah, like, if you, if you look at the if we could be complete virtualization segment that we have to do since we are the they've been managing these, this segment of the most critical segment across

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Rizwan Shaikh: across all the organizations. If look at this talk about symmetrics, for is in that. What's your applications? I'll be in the horizon applications all of these, all of the solutions actually the big agenda that pulls across the new solutions is to deploy and

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Rizwan Shaikh: provision access to the applications in the most secure way. The more optimized it. Right. I mean, we look at all the use cases that we have today. But but it is. It is a hospital positions for the it is

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Rizwan Shaikh: manufacturing. B. If it's a banking infrastructure to that matter of financing. For that matter, all of these they use the solutions to have a secure delivery of applications on the other side. If I look at this flip side, maybe have the it segment to manage all of these applications.

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Rizwan Shaikh: They need to have a solution which can manage the solution which can manage the complete infrastructure in a more optimized way they can, making use of the resources of the more optimized way.

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Rizwan Shaikh: So the new feature of apps on the demand. That's that's a feature which is this is the part of the we under app volume, infrastructure. We have a solution that provides a certain degree of resource optimization in terms of in terms of eliminating

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Rizwan Shaikh: the complete sign of a application from the operating system level.

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Rizwan Shaikh: Now, what the the main reason why being there well with this kind of solutions is, if you look at the if you look at it, to trace environment as such, for specifically, for the app publishing part where you have an Rdsf segment or a strict or being there

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Rizwan Shaikh: Verizon application segment. We have multiple silo that we have multiple silos of the infrastructure which are being deployed across, ready to be called farms for those of all the

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Rizwan Shaikh: But these infrastructure needs to be managed, that mean

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Rizwan Shaikh: motive of the main

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Rizwan Shaikh: purpose of having these kind of infrastructure is to is to permission applications on these silos of these on these farms, and then this this application will be interacted across multiple users. Now, what really happens here is if you look at this, I mean.

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Rizwan Shaikh: it needs to manage a lot of things here right? We need to manage the operating system. The entire platform is sitting on.

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Rizwan Shaikh: We need to manage the applications they need to. We need to update the security signatures, the security security updates.

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Rizwan Shaikh: You also need to ensure that the applications are all these updated so that users can get new features, and the organization is also secured that we have to be able to security enough, and so that they can get rid of me of all the vulnerability that can come across on the operating system level of the application level.

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Rizwan Shaikh: Now, this brings a real big challenge for for all the it organizations here, and that is there you you keep on going with with it. I mean we you You have heard about about past Tuesday, right? That's that's the most dangerous times.

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That's the most critical time, I would say, for all the it organizations to to match each and every component that they have, including application. You send the operating system

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Rizwan Shaikh: now.

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Philip Sellers: So so I do want to break in. I mean, you know, before we we go down like the the full rabbit hole here with with this, I mean, I I do want to spend a little bit of time talking about the problem. I mean, because this is pervasive right like this isn't new just to Vdi. It's not new just to

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Philip Sellers: the things we're trying to do in in user compute. I mean, these are same sort of application problems that we had years ago before virtualization, right? I mean, we. We used to put many applications on a single operating system back when hardware was very limited, and then virtualization allowed us to put many individual virtual machines dedicated to one app

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Philip Sellers: and encapsulate that

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Philip Sellers: and and run that securely. And before that, you know we would put SQL server in exchange, and maybe a domain controller. I mean I I I did those. Since you know I I deployed my small business server, where you know everything, for the company was all on a single physical box.

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Rizwan Shaikh: you know. And and really that's the problem that we're talking about. Here is you start layering those applications together. Things get messy, right? I mean, that's that's the easy way to simplify it right? Things get messy.

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Rizwan Shaikh: Yeah, how are for the If you. If you look at the the virtualization in suspicion that we talk about it's all about layering right. I mean we. We. We we go into virtualization solution. It's a layered, of course, that we take, and you have a Vdi which is basically nothing but an operating system.

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Rizwan Shaikh: a virtual machine which is having an operating system with the minimal set of resources. Then we have the application layer, and then we have the user layer which most most of them, because the data layer actually, which which is basically a user profile. And then we have the complete environment. So all of this is bundled across

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into one virtual machine which is then presented to the end user for the most critical segment.

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Rizwan Shaikh: Yeah, one of the most particular segments here is the application part. Now, with the app volume. The biggest benefit that we get here is, as you as you rightly mentioned, right. I mean, all of these applications have been removed

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Rizwan Shaikh: from one single host of one single unit machine, and these applications are layered across under one single side of. So what I can do here is, no matter what kind of machine I have, what kind of virtual machine I have, I can simply entitle users

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Rizwan Shaikh: for group of users for a specific application, which means that I no longer have to depend on the golden image of that of that Vdi. I. I don't have to create multiple templates of that machine

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there by reducing the storage which I, which I obviously even the infrastructure. That's the biggest for the most biggest advantage that I get from the app volume.

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Philip Sellers: Well, it's for the number of of images in a different way to I mean, you know

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Philip Sellers: we used to have, you know, desktop images that were built specifically for a use case or for a a user group in the company, because, you know, the only way to get just the apps that the user needs onto their desktop. And the old way was well. You had to stamp out a different image for each one of those

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now by image from the applications and the application delivery. You can tailor that and make it a very customized. So you know, if if a user in finance doesn't need the marketing applications. They don't see the marketing applications in their Vdi session.

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Rizwan Shaikh: You're absolutely right? Yes, absolutely. That's that's how that's how they compete with solution works. Yeah. So a better way would be like the like. The you more desktop services that we do that tumble, serve an environment that we use here

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Rizwan Shaikh: where you, you don't go ahead and deploy the completely desktop. I mean. You can simply go ahead and only permission the application that you want to see the the marketing example is one. What good example of that? You can only see

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Rizwan Shaikh: of marketing applications itself. But the engineering users can only see them only the applications, and not any other applications.

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Rizwan Shaikh: Well, that's something which which.

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Philip Sellers: and and the blog goes to a little bit about this I mean one of the other benefits to that. I mean, you get the division of ownership, you know, so that you, your application teams, you know, or they have an easier job of updating those applications.

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Philip Sellers: you know, in a business continuity setting you, you can update the farm, but then, you know, critical applications, temporary farm you can configure, you know, on on the fly a lot more easily than you know All of the testing it takes to create a a separate image, and you know

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Philip Sellers: the conflict resolution between all of the applications, you know. Does Microsoft office, you know 20,

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Philip Sellers: 1720, 19 play well with, You know Microsoft Dynamics. Crm: You know those kind of problems that come into play as you're creating an app image and stuff.

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Philip Sellers: And the other one I liked out of this is entitlements right. So because you're only entitling it, or only delivering it to certain users. You keep a lot more control over your software licensing for third party apps, you know they've got a w acrobat icon right here on the the screen. So you know that's a great one, You know you pay per user for acrobat. And so you only want to deliver acrobat to the users who need to edit Pdfs. Not to everyone in your. You don't want to pay for everyone right?

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Rizwan Shaikh: Absolutely, absolutely. This is. This is a perfect example of what what we talk about in the app quality itself. So the app volume actually leverages all of these all of these benefits for an organization you cannot. You could actually go ahead. Say, for example, slack for that. But Slack is a user base licenses, and you can actually control

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Rizwan Shaikh: who are the users who are going to use this application by simple means of entire element. You can simply go ahead and title a lot of these users for the grip of us, and only these users will be able to have access to this back and everything else.

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Rizwan Shaikh: So that's something which which brings a lot of benefits by having having the apple infrastructure of our clearing structure actually in a virtualization environment.

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Rizwan Shaikh: And the longest other features that we can. We can also actually have a look in terms of in terms of operations. If you look at

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Rizwan Shaikh: today deploying, deploying an application in in a server or in a machine.

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Rizwan Shaikh: You need to factor a lot of things in the machine itself. The machine needs to be compatible for that application to get it installed with the app volume. This is no longer needed.

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Rizwan Shaikh: and we still no longer need. It is because I am not installing that application on that particular machine around that particular server. What i'm doing here is, i'm laying that application across the separate silo all together.

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Rizwan Shaikh: and then entitle that application across to the users and the users can log into the Bbi's, or to be orderly any of the servers that they that they want to, and they can access those applications, feeling that that's something which I do. So With this I get a lot of benefits

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Rizwan Shaikh: in terms of in in terms of I don't have to restart, and at least at least out of any server. Any Vdi is not be needed. I don't have to do amazing of all of these Vdi is just because I need to update the applications. Or let's say, for example, if I want to go with version one dot x, 2 Dot x. I need to do a lot of things on the email, on the on the machine itself.

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Rizwan Shaikh: with the app. Wall, I don't need to do it at all actually. and

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Rizwan Shaikh: and the best part here is a single app copy will be, will be enough for all all the users. What they would be entitled for all of this, all the for for for that particular applications actually now.

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Rizwan Shaikh: And as you I mentioned right, I mean, how about the application management are you talking to talk about like application updates? How do we do testing? And how do we? How do you bring that new 86 to production

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Rizwan Shaikh: that's phenomenally well described and well well configured across from the appholding structure. You can go ahead, define a test or to find a Uat test a bit for the application. See how the applications working with the grip of users, the group of test users, and then deploy that application to production. Once

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Rizwan Shaikh: the application is ready for for the end us to to to be provisioned across. That's something which which which is, which is the beauty of our

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Rizwan Shaikh: No.

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Philip Sellers: So I I do want to spend a and and again just kind of point out we're talking a lot about the at volumes capabilities, kind of giving you an introduction to the problem

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Philip Sellers: to what at volume solves. But you know, I I think we also have to realize that there's a lot of solutions out in the marketplace

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Philip Sellers: that have tried to solve this problem. Right? You know the block. Those points out here. A lot of different solutions have tried to solve it. They've come close, but no cigar. Yeah. So can you talk a little bit about like, you know app stacks, you know, before at volumes? Maybe a little bit about Citrix app layering and kind of. Where did they fall short?

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Rizwan Shaikh: Well, the the all that you see in the in the in the abstract. So we've got more licenses out. Clearing was these applications of these static, which means that once you some applications are installed on the on the desk, I you. It can zoom. That's particular storage on the on the desk itself, which means that when I go ahead and title the apple issue.

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these applications are made ready for me once the moment I I and log into the media, so i'll be able to see

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Rizwan Shaikh: my adobe acrobat, my slack, my zoom chrome Chrome browser.

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Rizwan Shaikh: At the same time, when i'm not into the Vdi. Probably I may not be using all of these applications in one Co. Itself. Right? Let's say, For example, imagine the scenario where I have 300 applications.

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Rizwan Shaikh: and all of these 300 applications are published across from an app audio, and when I log in. What really happens is at the back end. I have the app volume provisioning all of these app stacks the moment I buy

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Rizwan Shaikh: I logic. So what really happens? My login reduces my my, my my profile, time, my my my my profile increases, but the find log in time increases. That that's something causes the poor end user experience. Probably I I was able to log into the Vdi, and almost like 10 s 15 s

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now the same Vdi, the same as the credential. It's almost it's taking almost a minute for me to log into that media, and that's only because I have

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Rizwan Shaikh: 300 app stacks, so 300 applications being deployed across in one to itself, I may, I may not be needing all of those applications in my in my regular regular usage, but still those are getting installed.

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Rizwan Shaikh: Now, that's something which is pretty. It's just pretty common, if you to look at the All all the today. How ever, what really happens and what what is, what is there on the like? A charity on top basically is if you talk about option, demand today

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Rizwan Shaikh: the actual demand from Vmware actually brings a near real time delivery of the applications to the end users, which means today. But I I go ahead and title. These users across the end users today to the end users for the end users when they log in, they don't see all of these applications coming in.

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Rizwan Shaikh: They would only see this application getting getting deployed across from the machine the moment I need those applications. A typical example is, let's say, for example, I have a Pdf file.

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Rizwan Shaikh: and I want to see the Pdf. File and the adobe acrobat will be permission through apps on demand. The moment I double click on that in your file it will be acrobat will get, will then get installed across for me. Will that provisioned across to me on that particular on that particular usage. It is on the fly that I get the application, which means

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Rizwan Shaikh: I am not pre-loading my image my machine with all of the application which I may not be needing. It also at that moment of time.

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Rizwan Shaikh: That's the best part which apps on demand. Reason. It brings in the real real time access to the applications for me whenever these applications are needed for the action. And that's the beauty that that comes across. That's when we talk about resource, utilization, a proper way of resource utilization.

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Rizwan Shaikh: This is where apps on Demand plays a very important piece. It doesn't. Go ahead. Your storage or or infrastructure or resources. It simply goes ahead. It makes use of it, but it is needed, otherwise it will. It will not be. It will not be deploying it across the

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Philip Sellers: yeah. I mean it's a it's a huge step forward for us. I mean, just kind of hitting that just in time. Used case right, you know not until you ask, Where is it delivered to you? So yeah, you and you're not. Both have experienced the the calls from our users. Man, you know it's so slow it's so slow.

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Philip Sellers: What does it mean? User Perspective, when we get it's so slow Well, a lot of times. It's that login time, because you know, we're doing things with profiles. We're doing things with loading and apps and things like that. So anything we can do to accelerate that log in time. That's gonna change user perspective of slowness. And and this is a great example, too, of

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Philip Sellers: of centralization. Do you want to talk a little bit about. You know the administrative advantages there for apps on demand. I I know there's a few here that yeah, and you've mentioned a few of them. But previously in the podcast. But can you go into some of those administrative benefits?

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Rizwan Shaikh: Well, the biggest benefit that the industry gets is the self optimization.

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Rizwan Shaikh: right? I mean you you are not pre-loading the storage here. You have the application that you're not using the storage in the time it is needed in it to be used, and that same story that we use it for something else.

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Rizwan Shaikh: That's something which which which i'm and and based on that I can design a complete solution. I can go ahead and say that I'll be needing this much amount of storage, and I can reserve this a month, which is much amount of so for some of the work, but that the intern that doesn't mean that i'll be preloading this applications across on that particular on that particular. This or the particular storage.

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Rizwan Shaikh: Yeah, you know, we we also get the the centralized management, though as well, I mean you. You've got the centralized location for managing the images. You you get a single copy that that works for all users, and and you know we get compliance. I mean, I know, coming from

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Philip Sellers: a system center config manager world, you know. We would have groups and entitlements to applications, and it would push out the applications. But it wasn't ever really good at taking the application away if the user wasn't using it, you know we

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Philip Sellers: we tried, but it was cumbersome with this, for users not entitled. They never see it right. It doesn't matter if it's on this machine or not.

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Rizwan Shaikh: Yeah.

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Rizwan Shaikh: I mean that's that's something which which you can see here as well, right. I mean, if you look at the utilization perspective, that's that's a huge benefit which which comes across in terms of so when I say the source is, it's totally destroying it's also.

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Rizwan Shaikh: or the CPU as well as memory, because you you are not loading up your memory. You're not loading up your your CPU, just because just because you have an application there somewhere, sitting at the demon process, you simply simply go ahead, Make use of that application when it is needed. Until that time

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Rizwan Shaikh: you have your resources being properly utilized, you haven't you have it so it's been properly optimized, the cost.

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Rizwan Shaikh: So that's the biggest benefit that the the operations we can get across Most importantly. Most of the benefits that you see here is already been covered in the in the app or in between. You. Have

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Rizwan Shaikh: you have that copy of the application which which you can keep on updating? You Don't, have to go ahead, Update the operating system. But you should be update the application itself, and definitely one single application. One single application can be entitled to multiple users, and

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Rizwan Shaikh: it can be either on a Vdi segment or virtual desktop, that we say, or it can be on a terminal server platform like a remote desktop. So this is that's something which

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Rizwan Shaikh: which, if it's on on both descent, I mean you. You have the end users as well as that's what I was talking on. The

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Philip Sellers: yeah, absolutely. And and again, you know, all of this leads to radical simplification, which yields lower cost to maintain

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Philip Sellers: easier administration, better resource, utilization, I mean there there's so many benefits to having a good solid app strategy when it comes to your end. User compute. And this isn't just inside of a a Vdi environment. Right? I think Vmware is offering this on a bare metal on on, you know, windows endpoints, laptops as well.

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Philip Sellers: That's correct. Yeah. And so that's a for customers. You've got one way of of entitling and centralizing all of your app delivering. That's that's that's huge in my book.

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Rizwan Shaikh: That's correct. Yeah, and the most important part here is well. I mean this application volume that we have only supports all kinds of opportunities we look at, if it can be legacy of the legacy applications that we have today. It supports that as well.

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Rizwan Shaikh: Newer applications are definitely supported. But then we have a lot of customers who use legacy application, using a lot of other. A lot of other older applications. App Volume is the key for that. They can simply go ahead and leverage all of these features across on these applications, and they have a better utilization of their environment.

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Philip Sellers: Yeah. And and that's the last point of the blog we'll, we'll call this one out. Yeah, this is all awesome, but we'll add volume. Support my applications. You you're talking about this.

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Philip Sellers: Can you tell us a little bit about the different at volume formats. You know what support there is, and how users can leverage it.

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Rizwan Shaikh: Yup. So basically if you look at the it's, look at the format up all it will. Basically nothing. But it's just the staff, right? It's just an application start, which is, which is then deployed across for all the head users. So typically, if you, if you look at if you look at it in the application that you see right, let's say, for example, the graphics based applications or

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Rizwan Shaikh: our office space application. Usually a task worker knowledge. We'll be using it any any kind of any sign applications or ex, for that matter, any kind of likings for that. But I think that

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Rizwan Shaikh: I don't for that

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Rizwan Shaikh: even shale extension set me also to be supported. Actually, so the best part here is any application that you have, I mean today is the biggest fear of what the customers have here is. They're going to bring in the application. They're in an application, but they do. I have to record my application. The answer is, No.

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Rizwan Shaikh: you don't have to do that. You don't need to record your application. You don't need to put that development efforts to to to do the recording of the application. You simply go ahead. Provision that application the way it is at least provisioned across, and that's it, Apple. It will do the job

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Rizwan Shaikh: and the other good part. Here is a lot of applications which are Still.

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Rizwan Shaikh: it's typically very old, and on a legacy, fashion, application to that matter and it and you may have applications which are not supported on the newer newer operating system. So the newer

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Rizwan Shaikh: so we can. We can still use those applications on a, on a, on a, on a, on a, on a, on a on a machine on a Vdi, and it can do an isolation of all these applications. The process which which we call the sandboxing, and typically that is called, and it's called

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Rizwan Shaikh: so. You can sandbox and application across, which is pretty old legacy, which is not supported in a virtualization perspective. You simply go ahead and use and sample through the application published with applications across an a virtualization environment.

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Rizwan Shaikh: Typically, this was called as an application.

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Rizwan Shaikh: It's it's it's not. It's a. It's a. But yeah, we have to be. We can even go ahead. And we can also also isolate those applications across

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Rizwan Shaikh: on on a via environment.

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Philip Sellers: Yeah. So customers end up with 3 different ways. They they've got their appliance format, which supports many of the installable ways of packaging.

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Philip Sellers: They got the an app format, but they also have support for Microsoft's, Msi. X. And and talking a little bit with with some folks over at Vmware, about Ms. Ix.

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You know my my question was, and and so our listeners may have the same question. Seems a lot like at volumes. Right? So what's the advantage to Msi. X inside of that volumes.

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And what my being where folks are telling me is that it allows us to do attachment at an individual user session. So Msi. X. Gives you some of the at volumes like features, but it's going to attach at the the device we're at the computer level, not at the user level. So

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Philip Sellers: if you've already spent time, you've already invested in Msi. X. You can reuse those you can pull those into at volumes as well, and deliver them out with that volumes on demand on a per user basis. And that's a huge, huge advantage, because

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Philip Sellers: you know, regardless of what standard or what investment you've previously made. You're gonna get good outcomes you're gonna get, you know. Return on that investment, whether it's your time or money, You know, with any of these packaging solutions. So I like the fact that that at volumes is is supporting.

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Philip Sellers: You know, multiple different formats that you don't have to completely start from scratch you can import and and use the things that you've already established today. So that's a huge win for me

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Philip Sellers: last section kind of closing out here. I want to talk about support for other third parties, you know. We set it at the top of the podcast, but

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Philip Sellers: it it repeat it. It deserves to be repeated in my mind. This Isn't: just a Vmware technology it's supported across more places. Can you tell us a little more about that? Was one.

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Rizwan Shaikh: Yeah, it's. It's a look at the if you look at the complete solution of our polling. So in this is more like a separate separate solution altogether right. I mean that this can actually work on any

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Rizwan Shaikh: virtualization technology that we use, then Citrix, and that it can be a Verizon or even Microsoft, that one. So I think we have a dash solution, or you have a typical service solution

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Rizwan Shaikh: or a solution which is deployed or an on that environment. And you can leverage app for you, and that's on demand features, and you can go ahead and and optimize your applications across all of these segments, and you have citrix after machine

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Rizwan Shaikh: or or a license cloud environment, or Microsoft visual Platforms, or even the avd for that part of it those kind of multi-session or windows. They're not windows. They've been monkey system, environment as well. So so any any solution that you have today, you can. You can actually go ahead and we can leverage the out volume, and we can start

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Rizwan Shaikh: start building up something like up here and start optimizing your applications.

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Philip Sellers: Yeah, and and that's that's truly cool to see. You know a. Again as a nod to that being a different application.

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Philip Sellers: you know, talking with with Vmware, there are licensing subscriptions for the technology that are specific for it's it's called horizon at Universal, I believe, is the subscription that gets you all this great technology. It does not mean you have to license horizon for Vdi, you can come in, and for a simple subscription you're able to get the at volumes. Technology completely separated to use in any of these other.

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Philip Sellers: So it's pretty friendly, pretty easy to understand, and definitely has a lot of benefits.

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Philip Sellers: Anything else you can think of, that our listeners should know about apps on demand.

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Rizwan Shaikh: Well, I would say that this just go ahead and try it out. I mean, just go ahead and

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Rizwan Shaikh: and reach out to us, and we can help you across and and and show you like how absolutely demands. Get work for you, no matter what kind of environment that you have. We can go ahead, and we can optimize your applications in much better way that you could get it to do today, and you would see the difference, the woman that has been installed, and we will deploy.

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Rizwan Shaikh: And and this is this is about a reaction from

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Rizwan Shaikh: individually from us. And this is the reaction from all of our customers where we have deployed, apps on demands. Well, this is this: it's, it's such a magic which works it well actually for the users and for the administrative side of that I need to see the same difference happening in your

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Rizwan Shaikh: Just let us know if we need any help we just to call away, and we should be able to help you out.

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Philip Sellers: Yeah, you You were telling me at the before the podcast started. You've done several of these pocs. You've got hands on the experience with it, and this is a brand new product. So we we love digging into those new products here is integral. And so we're excited to to get it out there and help you learn more about it so definitely echoing what riz one said, reach out to us.

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Philip Sellers: So, r one, I really appreciate getting together with you to talk about this. It was it was fun today, I know Andy's normally our our host. But we can sub in sometimes, too, Can't we?

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Rizwan Shaikh: Sure, definitely definitely

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Philip Sellers: Well, with that we appreciate everybody listening until next time. This has been episode 31 of Vmware horizon v. And we're on the horizon.

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Philip Sellers: My name again was Phil Rizwan was also joining us. Today we appreciate you listening, and we'll see you next time.

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Rizwan Shaikh: Thank you very much, Bill. Thank you.